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Windows Server Forum / Exchange Server / Design / July 2006

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Does a MS Ech2K3 Server need a GC on the same LAN?

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Julien - 22 Jul 2006 13:44 GMT
I am planning to use MS Echange 2003 Entreprise Edition in our Windows 2003
Domain.
The thing is I have 2 offices, the 1st one in Tokyo and the 2nd one in the
north of Japan.
For security-reasons, I cannot put a DC in the 2nd office so I decided to
put 2 DCs in Tokyo office for redunduncy purposes.
BUT let's say I put a Mailbox Server (MS Ech 2K3) in the 2nd office (that is
on a LAN where there is no GC locally).

Will MS Ech 2003 work properly even the only GC available is on a remote LAN?
Al Mulnick - 22 Jul 2006 14:49 GMT
"Properly" and "Well" are two different things.
The latency in most WAN links would manifest itself exponentially if you
went with that design - most likely.

If there's a need to put a mail server there, there's a need to put it's
directory there as well.  Exchange relies heavily on the GC for it's
directory services and you do not want to separate the two like that if you
can help else performance would suffer horribly in most cases.

Have you considered using RPC/HTTP for the non-Tokyo users?

>I am planning to use MS Echange 2003 Entreprise Edition in our Windows 2003
> Domain.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Will MS Ech 2003 work properly even the only GC available is on a remote
> LAN?
Julien - 22 Jul 2006 15:11 GMT
First thanks for your answerAl!

I forgot to say that we will more likely use Outlook 2003 Cache Mode on the
Client Side so that GAL-related load coming from users will be gone.

1) Despite this, will still MS Ech2K3 (the Mailbox server) not be working
well?
I admit that the MAibox Server may take more time to transfer e-mails since
it needs GC/DC info to transfer properly e-mails, but except that what could
be the problems?

2) The reason why I was thinking of putting a Mailbox Server in the North of
Japan is to avoid the bottleneck issue that would arise when all the users
would open their Outlook 2003 and connect to their Mailbox Server.
Because in Japan all users arrive at the same time in the morning, which
means everybody access their Mailbox at the same time.
Moreover, those users ususally receive huge e-mails like 12MB e-mails during
the night.
Therefore even if using OUtlook 2003 CAche Mode, the first time all the
users start their Outlook, their will be a latency and a long time before
they start receiving their new e-mail in case the Mailbox server was not in
local.

And even if using HTTP over RPC, that would be the same problem since anyway
they would have to dowload their big e-mails all together in the morning
which would also create a bottleneck effect!

Tell me what you think!

Thanks in advance.

> "Properly" and "Well" are two different things.
> The latency in most WAN links would manifest itself exponentially if you
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> > Will MS Ech 2003 work properly even the only GC available is on a remote
> > LAN?
Al Mulnick - 22 Jul 2006 23:45 GMT
The mailbox server would perform slowly without a local GC in most cases.
Cached mode can help, but the users will download the OAB every day which
can be rough.  Same issue as you describe with the mail.

If you absolutely must have better performance and a better performing
Exchange server, consider making that Exchange server a GC.  Better yet,
consider virtualization.  I understand you mentioned you are unable to put a
DC local to the site but your requirements are opposing to that.

If you are unable to make the Exchange server a GC or put one local, then I
highly suggest putting the server in the same site as the GC and letting the
users get their mail and OAB remotely.  They'll be functional even when they
first logon, but it will likely take time to get the first emails.  At least
it will be consistent and the server itself won't be bogged down, just the
WAN link.

You can't make a silk purse out of this one :)

> First thanks for your answerAl!
>
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>> > remote
>> > LAN?
Julien - 23 Jul 2006 01:01 GMT
Al,
another question!
If like I said, we were using Outlook 2003 Cached Mode on the Client side
and that no local GC was present on the Lan the Mailbox Server of North Japan
office is located, exactly when would the Mailbox server have problems?

I know that MS Exch 2K3 will need a GC and DC when routing e-mails to find
out where is the Mailbox of recipients and then how to route the mail so that
it can reach recipients Mailbox Server.
But the only drawback of having a remote DC/GC here is that e-mail routing
will be slower but nobody will even notice it, right?

1) So except this, where and/or when do you think other problems could arise?

2) You said that this could also create problems when Outlook 2003 Clients
would be downloading their OAB, but if the OAB is replicated on the Mailbox
Server, then users would dowload it from the local Mailbox server, so I don't
see very well where the problem could be!
Could you tell me what you meant by issue with the OAB?

Thanks for your help here.

> The mailbox server would perform slowly without a local GC in most cases.
> Cached mode can help, but the users will download the OAB every day which
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> >> > remote
> >> > LAN?
jamestechman@gmail.com - 23 Jul 2006 14:48 GMT
"But the only drawback of having a remote DC/GC here is that e-mail
routing
will be slower but nobody will even notice"

It's not really e-mail routing, it's really the entire message
processing, categorization, routing etc. Exchange will cache the
directory information which does help, but does periodically query AD
for this information. Also you said that you could not place a GC in
your second site for security reasons, can you elaborate on this?
Thanks.

James Chong
MCSE + Messaging, MCTS
msexchangetips.blogspot.com

> Al,
> another question!
[quoted text clipped - 103 lines]
> > >> > remote
> > >> > LAN?
Al Mulnick - 23 Jul 2006 16:43 GMT
James beat me to it.
The OAB has to get generated and I was thinking of having the OAB
centralized.  You're correct, it *could* be on the Northern Japan server if
you configure it that way. Doesn't have to be. If local, it's going to be
better download performance, although it's a background process for the
client, so I'm not sure anyone will notice.

As James asked, what was the reason you can put an email server local to the
site but can't put a GC?

> "But the only drawback of having a remote DC/GC here is that e-mail
> routing
[quoted text clipped - 152 lines]
>> > >> > remote
>> > >> > LAN?
Julien - 23 Jul 2006 21:47 GMT
The reason why I cannot put a DC in the North of Japan is that the
Head-quarter decided that for security reasons a DC cannot be put in a room
that is not securely locked.
Our office is within the Japanese Client's Office so that the only server
room we have available is a room that is accessible from the top, meaning it
has no roof!
For this reason people from the HQ said no for a DC in that kind of PC room
but ok for a Mailbox Server.

But concretely what won't work well if I don't put a local GC in the North
of Japan?

> James beat me to it.
> The OAB has to get generated and I was thinking of having the OAB
[quoted text clipped - 162 lines]
> >> > >> > remote
> >> > >> > LAN?
Al Mulnick - 24 Jul 2006 00:44 GMT
What won't work? Just about everything.  That server is so dependent on the
directory, that everything it does that might require a lookup, i.e. folder
reads, message reads, F/B updates (by default every 15 minutes), store
maintenance, mail delivery, anti-virus scanning, backups, etc... Pretty much
everything the server does or might do. It expects to have a GC local to it.
By itself, if this is not a very busy Exchange server, it might do alright
most of the time.  What's the cutoff? Can't tell.  But note that the way
Exchange works (in practice), everything has to get done.  If it is not
finished right this second, then it goes into the queue. You'll run into
performance related issues and possibly some operational issues over time
vs. all at once.  Exchange *can* operate for periods of time with a GC that
is not local. It's designed to do that. It's not designed to do that
permanently.

I sense that you're trying to justify an exception to the decree of no GC.
If you lose that, I highly suggest favoring the server vs. the clients and
have the clients access the server remotely.  If it later becomes a
performance problem, i.e. users are unhappy, then have them put a GC in the
local site along with the Exchange server.  I would not budge on the
Exchange server and the GC/DNS/DC being in the same LAN connected site.
Preferrably on the same subnet.  If necessary, on the same machine depending
on layer 8 issues in that org (I infer that AD is not managed by you? Or is
that just the location of the DC's that is not?)

Hopefully no black-clad individuals jump in through the roof and take your
servers ;)

Al

> The reason why I cannot put a DC in the North of Japan is that the
> Head-quarter decided that for security reasons a DC cannot be put in a
[quoted text clipped - 203 lines]
>> >> > >> > remote
>> >> > >> > LAN?
Chris Bartram - 24 Jul 2006 12:10 GMT
> The reason why I cannot put a DC in the North of Japan is that the
> Head-quarter decided that for security reasons a DC cannot be put in a room
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> But concretely what won't work well if I don't put a local GC in the North
> of Japan?

Almost everything.

Can you not just improve the physical security (lock the DC in a cage
with no keyboard/mouse?) and put a DC/GC onsite, or buys a rack-bount or
other small server and hide it in a wiring closet?

i can see the thinking, but surely there's more ptentially valuable
information in a mailbox than on a DC if you were thinking of data
theft? Since network access to the directory is unavoidable, you only
have to worry about physical access to the server.

It's really going to be a pain. Depending how good the link is you may
have problems getting exchange to start at all, never mind perform well.
Christopher Summers - 27 Jul 2006 21:15 GMT
Physical access to the exchange server is as much or more of a security risk
then access to the DC.  The exchange server will have databases that store
company data that is worth as much or more then the directory information
stored on the DC.  I would recommend finding a way to secure the servers and
putting both a DC and Exchange there or not putting either there.

> The reason why I cannot put a DC in the North of Japan is that the
> Head-quarter decided that for security reasons a DC cannot be put in a
[quoted text clipped - 203 lines]
>> >> > >> > remote
>> >> > >> > LAN?
Steve Morche - 28 Jul 2006 15:19 GMT
Julien,
You have a challenge ahead of you that may be fixed by pre-positioning
Exchange mailbox content on the local network of the remote office.
I'm a storage architect that also handles some exchange design problems for
my company.
Check out a company called Riverbed.
http://www.riverbed.com/technology/app_streamlining/index.php
Their product can provide TCP WAN acceleration which would include the
Exchange traffic. We are looking at deploying these around our region and are
currently evaluating them in our lab. We are seeing up to 80% improvements on
file access and reduced latency so far.
I hope this provides other options and ideas.

> The reason why I cannot put a DC in the North of Japan is that the
> Head-quarter decided that for security reasons a DC cannot be put in a room
[quoted text clipped - 174 lines]
> > >> > >> > remote
> > >> > >> > LAN?
 
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